Give 'Em Heaven

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Someone tells you heaven sounds boring, and you're not sure how to respond. It's a moment many believers have faced, and the answer runs deeper than you might expect.

John Hopper, Mary Jo Sharp, and Blaine Larsen unpack why the cloud-and-harp version of heaven most people picture isn't the full story, what the Bible actually describes, and why what you believe about heaven shapes how you share your faith. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

It's a big motivator to sharing your faith, what you think about what's coming in the future.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

You don't just lose your personhood, you don't lose your identity. You are made a right.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

I don't know of anybody who's ever said Jesus is boring. Today we've got a question uh from Kim in Chicago. And she says, I was sharing with an unbeliever friend this last week, and he told me heaven sounds boring. How do I respond?

SPEAKER_00 0:31

So what do you think, Blaine? Well, I have noticed that many of us believers talk about heaven in a way that does sound boring. So I can totally get that. I think it's a great question because heaven's anything but boring, right? Amen. Yeah, it's it's anything but boring. Uh but part of the issue is that and I've experienced this myself, I don't know about you both, but heaven's often talked about as what happens uh immediately after we die. So we die, our soul leaves our body, and it goes to heaven. And beyond that, there's just not much there. Some people might think, hey, we're just gonna be up there like singing worship songs all day. You know, maybe I'll put that off as long as I can. On a cloud with a harp. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Oh, I was thinking like an 80s rock concert worship setting.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

And so really, that couldn't be furthered from the truth, but oftentimes the version of heaven that we're talking about is is a little boring, but it's not what it's going to be like.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Do you feel the same way sometimes, Mary Jo, that that's people's perception of what heaven is?

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Yeah, I think when people are nervous about heaven, a lot of times it goes back to, well, what is it just like, yeah, is it these you know, sort of Victorian era pictures of the cherub? Do we turn into angels and sit on a cloud all day? Because that sounds really boring. I agree. And I think a lot of people don't stop to think on what heaven is. And so that that may be fueling some of that fear.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Now, is that view of heaven because we don't really know much about heaven, or are there things that we can know about heaven?

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Aaron Powell There's a lot we can know. In fact, in the old and new testaments, heaven is talked about quite a bit, but it's it's not the version that that we were just talking about. Um in fact, uh it's so important and we can know so much about what it's gonna be like that belief in the resurrection of our bodies and belief in a new earth has been part of the the basics, the fundamentals of the Christian faith, going back to the early centuries when they were developing even the the creeds that were part of the ecumenical councils and things like this. Those two things were were in there, and and those are you know short little statements of this these are the big things we believe. We're waiting for Jesus to come back, He's we're gonna be resurrected with bodies like his, and there's gonna be a new earth where we live with with him forever. That's really 101 Christianity. And that and that's really heaven as we're talking about it here. That's where the story starts.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

And is not the heaven that we're talking about what do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Yeah, meaning uh well, the heaven that that we're talking about uh culturally, right? This idea that your soul leaves and it goes to heaven. There's only a couple verses really that that talk about that. And it's not that that's not true, right? So when Christians die today, we go to be with the Lord, but there's only a few passages that talk about it's not a major emphasis. Uh so it it is true, and we don't know a lot about that. But the the point is the Bible's really this grand narrative story, and if we stop there, we're not at the end of the, we're kind of stopping people in the midway part of the story, not giving them the full story. And so when the Bible speaks about the the final heaven, the end of the story, that gets a lot of play uh in both the Old and New Testaments, and not just the book of Revelation, by the way. I Isaiah spends a lot of time on this, and the prophets and and and other other writers, we can get into some of that if we want to, but the but the point is this idea that there's gonna be a resurrection of our bodies that'll be like Jesus's, we'll uh we'll live with him, with the Father and Son, Spirit, Triune God. He's gonna dwell on earth with his people, and it's gonna be very similar to what we have now, only no problems.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Only not.

unknown 4:47

Only not.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

One of the things that seems like you're saying is that so Kim has this concern because her her friend thinks heaven is boring. And you're saying that it's not going to be boring in part because we won't just be these floating spirits, but because we'll actually have a body, right? Yeah, that's what you're saying. Yeah. So so if we have a body, okay, so a couple questions that come up with for me. First is like when does that happen? Right? If I were to die right now, would I get a new body right away, or is that gonna happen in the future? So that's my first question.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Yeah, I as far as I understand, people do people debate this because we don't really know a lot. The Bible doesn't tell us much about this intermediate time between now if we die and when Jesus returns. The the big picture for us is when when Jesus returns, there's a resurrection of believers.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

I will say if somebody is fearful of what happens between the time you die and the resurrection, remember Jesus on the cross looked at the thief next to him and said, Today you will be with me in paradise. So whatever does happen, it seems that, and and theologians argue this, is it soul sleep? What is it? But um, it seems like Jesus is promising him that to that person he will have that experience that today you're with me in heaven.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

And a little sleep a little sleep could be paradise, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Oh my goodness, yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

So we don't know we don't know exactly what would happen if we die today, but it will be good because Jesus describes it as paradise. But at that point that Jesus returns, we're going to get a new body. Yeah. Okay, great. Now, okay, we have this new body, and we're saying that that's one of those things that really helps us see that it's not going to be boring. So why would you say like the fact that we're getting a new body that that helps us get across the threshold of heaven being boring?

SPEAKER_00 6:44

We're living in a world where things aren't like they're supposed to be, and yet he's given people different giftings and different purposes and roles to play. How much just magnify that? But we're still gonna need stuff. I mean, I think we're gonna eat. Jesus was was eating, running around having food. Uh the talk of the kingdom in the Old Testament especially has a lot of food and drink and dinners and get-togethers and commun, I mean, all of those kind of things. So we're gonna have a need for everything that we have now, and we're gonna have a role in being a part of that, except it's just not gonna be messed up by by sin. And God will be here present in the world in a new way, a way that we don't experience right now. Yeah, and and I think it's gonna be amazing.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

Yeah. So we might have needs, but we aren't gonna be frustrated in seeing those needs fulfilled, right? Oh man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Yeah. That's a um uh C. S. Lewis's space trilogy, or some people call it the ransom trilogy. There's in the book Paralandra, where he goes to another planet, the main character. It's a picture of a planet that never fell. They're still pristine. And one of the things, like when you're saying needs, one of the things that happens there is he eats and he's satisfied immediately. Like he eats and sat is satisfied. So he has the longing, but he's also satisfied. So when we think about heaven, the new earth, God is as the off there of life, he gives back life. And we see that through Jesus, right? Where there was death, now there is life. So he doesn't just leave everything to destruction and then Death Star blow it up, right? And then start over. He's redeeming what he made because he said it was good and it's worthy of that redemption. So when you picture heaven, think about it like life has good things. There are good elements that God created. And as author of life and a perfectly good God, he redeems it. There is reason that humans have hope. And you personally, not just humankind, but individuals, because there is hope that you go on and that you don't just lose your personhood, and you don't lose your identity, but that you are made a right. Um, and so the things you're desiring now are satisfying to you.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

I want to talk about one other element that I think is super important in terms of painting a picture of heaven not being boring. Okay. So when we think of something being boring, maybe it's a task that's repetitive, right? This is so boring. But oftentimes when we talk about something being boring, it it has a relational context to it. Like these people are so boring, or this class is so boring, right? So so when we're talking about something not being boring, we're also talking about relationships. And it seems to me that one of the things if we're going to talk about heaven not being boring is we're not just talking about oh, we get a new body and there's kind of some neat things out there, but we're going to have this relationship with Jesus that's unhindered. Right. I mean, I I don't know of anybody who's ever said Jesus is boring. No. But even if you disagree with him, it's like they usually disagree with him.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

Yeah, they don't think Jesus is boring, right? So and I think one of the pictures, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but of heaven is that we get to be with Jesus. Like that is part of what makes it not so boring.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

And an unhindered relationship. I like that. That's what that's what Lewis was trying to get at in Paralandra with between the main character and when he encounters Adam and Eve or Eve, that unhindered relationship where Eve is naked but not ashamed. Uh, and she shouldn't be, because that's how she was made. And so there's this realization that we are so hindered now. So I love that you brought that up about relationship, uh, thinking about really good relationships, but now this is a whole nother level of enjoyment and of satisfaction.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Yeah, and I would maybe I would add to that only to say that Jesus isn't more important than the father or the spirit. And so there's a new presence. Uh it's not just that we have a relationship with Jesus, but with the triune God, with and somehow in ways that I I don't think we can understand, but we're gonna experience him, father, son, and spirit in in new ways.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

You know, there's one picture that C. S. Lewis gives, and you brought up C. S. Lewis earlier, but it's in one of the Chronicles of Narnia books. And essentially when the characters are in that final like heaven type stage, he says, go farther up and further in. And I think that applies both to uh the circumstances we might uh be a part of, the situation we're a part of in heaven. Like can you imagine like when you go on a hike and you get to some vista point and you go, oh, this is so beautiful. And then you go a little further and you're a little higher, and you go, Oh my goodness, this is even more beautiful. I think there's a certain sense in which heaven will be like that, that we'll be exploring these these things that are just more and more beautiful. But if you think of that relationally also, like when you get to know a person, you go, Oh, I really like them. And if you get to know them even more, you're like I like them even more. Like today I love my wife much more than I loved her at first, even though I loved her as much as I could when we first got married. And I think that will be the case in heaven too. That one of the reasons it won't be boring is because we can always go farther up and further in with the circumstances that are around us and in the relationship that we have with this triune God.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

Yeah, and uh it's just my personal uh conviction, not everybody see this way, but I think we're gonna continue to grow in in knowledge and love for God forever.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Aaron Ross Powell Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. Now I want to sort of change the direction of this conversation. We've been talking about what heaven's like and the fact that it isn't boring. This question was asked because um Kim, she's in conversation with this person. She's I think wanting to sh share Christ and the gospel and the hope that's there. And then the friend says, well, heaven's boring, right? And it seems to be a barrier there. So what we're all about really in this podcast is helping people to share Jesus better. So how do we like look at this question of heaven and what heaven is like in those conversations? Like how how can heaven be something that encourages people to take a step of faith?

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Yeah, so I have a bunch of thoughts on this. It's a great question. It's super practical. And I I think from what we set this up with, I think I think is really the first answer, which I would say it may not be stuff that you necessarily share, you're not gonna have 20 minutes probably to talk about all the stuff we just did and and have fun with it. But for a believer personally, if if you aren't excited about heaven, how excited are you gonna be to talk to somebody about Jesus and want them to be in heaven with you and him one day? Probably not, right? I I think it's a big motivator to sharing your faith, uh, what you think about what's coming in the future. And so if we have a view of heaven that we're not even excited about, if there's a sense in which we go, what I'm experiencing right now in this life is maybe pretty cool, and my view of heaven is is less than now, well then how passionate are we gonna be about wanting to take as many people with us to heaven? Probably not. Conversely, uh the more people study some of the basics of the stuff that we've talked about here, you can probably tell how I'm talking. It's it's really cool and it comes across, I believe, when we're we're talking, our passion comes across when we're sharing with with people, and and they can tell. Um I used to be in the music business, uh, which you guys you guys know. And so I think of it kind of like that in the in the sense that I I would I had to record songs and I sang them and all this stuff. And sometimes I had to record songs that were forced on me, kind of here's your song, right? And I I always thought, I still believe this, that people can kind of tell. They can tell when you're not really into something, they can tell when you just your heart's not in it, even if you're trying really hard. And I think it's similar in these kind of if if we're really excited, you almost don't have to try, it just comes out of you, and people could tell.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Yeah. So I will so I'll pick up on that and say, um, if you feel like, well, I'm not super excited, because I haven't had fun with it yet, the all the stuff that we've been talking about, then um, you know, find common ground with the person. Ask them, what do you think heaven is like? Uh it it always helps you and the other person if you can find something you can agree upon so that they can converse with you. Um so if they say something like, Well, I think there is a heaven, okay, we got something to discuss. What is heaven like?

SPEAKER_00 16:21

It's the question. That's part of why we're talking about this, right? Because so often in conversations, that's the way the question is framed or even asked to us, you know. So what does happen when we die? Well, uh, we want people to have a good answer to that. And and we can know some things. I mean, we know enough to know that it's gonna be uh unbelievably amazing, right? All the ways we've already talked about. We don't want to be caught flat-footed going, I really don't know.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

So there's this one verse that we often refer to here at search, it's 1 Peter 3.15, and it talks about being prepared to give an answer for the hope that is within us. And it seems to me that a great deal of that hope has to do with the life to come, the the life that we can have with with Christ forever. So uh if we aren't exhibiting that hope, right, then are people gonna ask us questions about it, right? Like that so it it is a real motivation there to have that that hope there. So has there ever been a time in a conversation with people or any sort of setting where you've been able to share that hope you have in heaven that you think it's been helpful in the conversation that you've been having with someone?

SPEAKER_00 17:46

Yeah, I I've had lots of conversations uh about this topic because truthfully, whenever somebody brings up heaven, or even if they say just what happens when we die, that kind of stuff, I'll take it here because this is what I think it is. And I remember there's uh at a at a forum I was doing, we talked about this and somebody brought up this question, what happens when we die, or I think this, I forget exactly how it was, but the point is even in getting like 60 seconds to throw out a couple things, hey, maybe heaven's not just we die and we float off into some nothingness or whatever people think, but maybe it's it's an embodied experience on on earth, that's what the Bible teaches, kind of shut the discussion down in a good way. Meaning like there's a lot of hmm okay, that's pretty interesting. And that's what I experience a lot. And as we've talked on this podcast, right? There there's some of those moments where don't necessarily need to say even more. You've you've given them something to think about. And so that's in follow-up from even that, and and over the years, that's that tends to be my experience. Just the very basics make people really go, what? And they want to keep talking about it a lot more.

SPEAKER_02 19:09

So I had an opportunity um a few years back to share with an actually a large group of people about heaven. Um my my brother passed away. And a few weeks before he died, he we were talking about the service, and because I was going to be leading the service, and he said, I want you to give him heaven. And my brother was very confident of the heaven that we've been talking about today. And so he wanted me to share with people this vision, this robust vision of heaven. And so during the service, um, after s saying some various kind of fun things about my brother, um, I I told the gathering that I wanted to share with them some thoughts about heaven because my brother wanted me to do that. And I began to just run through basically scriptural descriptions of heaven from all through the scriptures, just laying out what heaven would be like. And I'm not so sure I've ever had as positive a response of a message at a memorial service that I've led. People were almost stunned by it, like that's what heaven's gonna be like, it's gonna be that great. And and certainly there were those who were believers already that that greatly encouraged them, but there were people there that weren't believers. And they were just getting this robust picture that they had never heard about before. And so I do think that um sharing the glory, the greatness, the beauty, the wonder, the freedom, the unashamedness of heaven can be an incredible uh lure um for people to consider the gospel.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Thanks for listening to the Reach Podcast. If you've got a question that you'd like to submit, go do that on reachothers.org slash podcast. And that whole website, reachothers.org, was developed by Search Ministries, which is our parent organization. And Search has been doing relational evangelism in the United States for almost 50 years, and we want to give the best of what we've learned away to you, and that's what we've done on reachothers.org. Hope you enjoy it. Come back and listen to the next episode.